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Testicles, Tan Tien, The Big Draw and The Orbit

topic posted Wed, March 17, 2010 - 5:17 PM by  Andrew
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I've just started these practices, but have some experience with meditating. I have been feeling great, less exhausted after masterbating, and a new found awareness of energy circulating in the body.

There are a few things I could use some help with.

I am unable to store energy in the dan tien. I have tried spiraling the energy, but I don't feel the center strongly with any consistency. Also the energy natural gets pulled back down to my genitals. I have a major blockage at the solar plexus that is beginning to open (as my throat and chest has gradually done of the past few years.)

Also, I feel the energy traveling up the tail bone and the sacrum, and vaguely up and around the spine. It seems like all the auxillary meridians are borrowing that energy too.

Do you recommend tensing or releasing muscles as climax nears? I'm worried that tensing would be stored in my muscle memory and be counter productive. That is also why I stay away from excercises that require muscular contraction, and why I am unsure as tohow much force should be used while breathing and moving energy down the front, and in general.

I have a lot of questions. Can anyone recommend a teacher, or retreat place. I've that Mantak Chia is a bit controversial so I'm looking for something more traditional.

Any comments will be very much appreciated!
posted by:
Andrew
New York
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  • Is your microcosmic orbit open? That is step one, before doing any sexual practices.

    But I have to warn you, I've studied with Mantak Chia <joke>. I've studied with him on and off since 1987, am certified to teach three of his classes including the sexual practices.

    I only know of a couple of teachers who teach this stuff, and even fewer who put anything in print.
    • I believe it is open. At least, I feel energy circulating all the way around it. I am sure there are degrees of openness, though. Could talk in detail about storing energy in the dan tien?
      • How much time do you spend running your orbit per day (or per week)?

        When I was taught qigong, I was taught to end practice with a closing exercise - the one I use is to make 36 turn clockwise spiral around my lower dan tien - starting small and making it large enough that it goes from by pelvic bone to my solar plexis - in the process 'gathering' the energy there from my whole body, then reversing 24 times counter clockwise compressing all that energy into the lower dan tien.

        I'd suggest you practice this and learn to move garden variety qi into your lower dan tien, then see if that solves your problem with storing sexual energy there.
        • I run my orbit probably 10 minutes a day, and a good deal more while doing everyday activities (though with less concentration of course).

          Do you coordinate the spiral with your breath? Sometimes I can't start the spiral or I start it and it goes shooting up a side meridian. Do you think this stems from weak concentration, or a blockage or what?

          I will definitely experiment with doing it as per your recommendation. Thanks!
          • I don't coordinate the spiral with my breath.

            Seems like the issue is unrelated to sexual energy.

            The spiral is a growing ball of energy - I think of it as being like a ball of string - as you wind more on it, it gets bigger. The lower dan tien is the center of the ball.

            I imagine I'm drawing energy from all over my body to the ball - all the 'loose' energy. I use the hand (my right hand) as if I'm winding the string (energy) around the ball, then as I reverse as if I'm making the ball shrink into the lower dan tien - down to a pin point.

            Are you clear on where the lower dan tien is? An inch or so below your navel and about half way between your navel & your spine.

            I'd suggest more practicing.
            • I still can't distinguish between sexual energy and chi, and jing.

              The spiraling is really coming a long so far.

              Are you rubbing your stomach with your right hand?

              I will try to shrink the ball. It's much hard for me then the clockwise growing.

              On a different note, and sorry to ask for so much of your time, are you doing testicular breathing while doing the sexual practice?

              I tend to more or less do the microcosmic orbit while masturbating, and it has prolonged by sexual stamina, and prevented ejaculation to some degree, but I don't feel like I'm being very efficient at bring the energy away. I try to bring the energy down my penis to the perenium and up the spine, though going from the perenium to the tail bone is sometimes difficult. Meanwhile I am trying to ground my energy through my feet, which is new, keep it circulated through my testicles which I tend to block, and bring the energy down my my throat, and past the solar plexus.

              Is there a better way to coordinate all this stuff, or am I doing too much at once?
              • I still can't distinguish between sexual energy and chi, and jing.
                - don't worry about it

                The spiraling is really coming a long so far.
                -good

                Are you rubbing your stomach with your right hand?
                - no, but I move my hand above my stomach in the spiral pattern, using the hand like an "energetic spoon" to 'stir the pot' in the spiral

                I will try to shrink the ball. It's much hard for me then the clockwise growing.
                - practice, practice, practice

                On a different note, and sorry to ask for so much of your time, are you doing testicular breathing while doing the sexual practice?
                - I do testicle breathing as a practice by itself. I do it sitting, when completely unaroused, usually for 5 to 10 minutes at a time. It makes me high as a kite (feels really good).

                -When I'm aroused, I do 'the big draw', then I run my orbit

                I tend to more or less do the microcosmic orbit while masturbating, and it has prolonged by sexual stamina, and prevented ejaculation to some degree, but I don't feel like I'm being very efficient at bring the energy away.
                - the classics talk about sexual energy as being like a wild horse. You have to train it to move.

                I suggest you learn the deer exercise:
                1 testicle massage - both hands gently squeezing and letting go of testes 49x
                2 pubic bone massage
                1 rub palms till hot, hold testes in R hand, L palm over pubic region, move L hand ccw 81x - feel energy from hand penetrate down to your prostate. Then shake out hands
                2 rub hands till hot, hold testes in L hand, r palm over pubic region cw 81x, shake out hands for 15 seconds
                3 w/ middle fingers, press and release jade pillow 49x

                Breathing part - from here on, inhale with your tongue to the roof of your mouth, on exhale bring tip of tongue to lower teeth or inside lower jaw
                close your fists around your thumbs, inhale to your belly & push down to perinium for a count of 15 while contracting perinium & anus , then hold your breath for 10 seconds pull up/in perinum & anus. Then exhale through your mouth.

                do the first part, then do the breathing exercise for 5 minutes. work your way up to doing the breathing part for 10 minutes.

                once you've done the deer exercise for a while, when you are aroused and want to delay ejaculation you tell your partner - "I'm going to pause here" - and then you pull up your anus/perinium while pushing down on your prostate. You'll probably feel a rush of energy, your erection will subside somewhat, open your eyes and tell your partner how much you appreciate her, then if you are both interested, resume thrusting.

                Daily I do the deer exercise for 10 minutes, then I do testicle breathing for 10 minutes. Then I run my orbit for 10.

                • Thanks so much.

                  once you've done the deer exercise for a while, when you are aroused and want to delay ejaculation you tell your partner - "I'm going to pause here" - and then you pull up your anus/perinium while pushing down on your prostate. You'll probably feel a rush of energy, your erection will subside somewhat, open your eyes and tell your partner how much you appreciate her, then if you are both interested, resume thrusting.

                  I've just tried the deer exercise and this and it works well. Eventually, with more control, will I be able to do the big draw with out stopping or pressing down on the perenium with my hand (I assume that is what is you meant by pressing on the prostate.)?

                  What's you experience with staying grounded through the legs during sexual practice and in general? I'm finding that it's a make it or break factor in terms of stamina.

                  You said only know a few teachers; anyone in new york?

                  On another note, I saw on your profile the you belong to a community living situation. Are there any similar places of note on the east coast. I'm really interested in living more intimately, and consciously with people.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Eventually, with more control, will I be able to do the big draw with out stopping or pressing down on the perenium with my hand (I assume that is what is you meant by pressing on the prostate.)?

                    - not sure I understand the question. You must stop to do the 'big draw'. When you do the draw [properly] you will have a very profound orgasmic experience and will lose your erection. If you do it with a partner, after you draw, you exhale your energy into them as they draw, then when they exhale you circulate the energy between you two to balance.

                    - pressing down - this is internal - very similar to the kind of pushing down you do have a bowel movement, but the pressure is directed to your prostate/perinium, not anus. inhale, tighten your abs slightly and gently push down. I am not a fan of the 'million dollar

                    - staying grounded. Again, not sure I understand your question. Ideally you should be doing standing meditations or tai chi on a daily basis to establish and maintain your grounding.I don't do anything during the sexual practices to maintain my grounding. I'm a huge fan of zhan zhuang - like Mantak Chia's iron shirt standing postures or wu chi standing or 'holding the balloon'

                    I know of only a few teachers, but a huge number of instructors. There should be a lot of Mantak Chia's instructors in NY- you can find an instructors directory on the universal tao website. It seems like author James W McNeill may be teaching sexual practices - I think his school is in Colorado. Then there are the 'white tiger/green dragon' people - that's not my cup of tea. You'll find that lots of the people who are publishing Taoist information are either Mantak Chia's students (Rachel Abrams, Eric Yudelove) or publishing his information.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    intentional communities

                    Wed, March 24, 2010 - 2:49 PM

                    On another note, I saw on your profile the you belong to a community living situation. Are there any similar places of note on the east coast. I'm really interested in living more intimately, and consciously with people.

                    - you should check out the intentional communities tribe - intentionalcommunity.tribe.net

                    Unfortunately I don't know much about the NY intentional community scene, we do know a lot of folks in Philadephia.

                    If you are interested in finding out more about our community (California, Hawaii), see the website at www.lafayettemorehouse.com
  • Re: Testicles, Tan Tien, The Big Draw and The Orbit

    Thu, September 2, 2010 - 1:24 PM
    I have a big question. I have been trying retention for a couple years now. My main motive is to build up enough chi in my body to be healthy and vibrant. The multiple orgasms while cool are not my primary concern. But I am not sure if I am doing something correct, because after a couple weeks of retention my libido goes through the roof and I have to empty and start all over again. Is there a way to calm down the sex drive so that it does not drive you insane if you pratice retention?
    • Re: Testicles, Tan Tien, The Big Draw and The Orbit

      Thu, September 2, 2010 - 8:08 PM
      1. for starters, you do not *need* to practice retention to build up enough chi in your body to be healthy and vibrant. It is one way, and at your age I'd be surprised if it was the only way. I'm a huge fan of zhan zhuang (standing) meditations - do that every day for 30 days and you'll notice a difference!
      2. when you start practicing retention, my experience has been that my 'raw' sexual energy will build up inside me, raising my libido. I call this phase 'riding the tiger.'
      3. as my body becomes more accustomed to that, the libido decreases back to normal
      4. you can help by doing grounding practices (like standing meditations)
      5. you can ease the transitions by doing a lot of meditations that digest/process/assimilate energy: running your orbit, doing the fusion meditations, etc
      6. if you aren't doing something with the sexual energy - like the meditations mentioned in 5 - it may just build up to the point where it finds a way out - ie ejaculation, even if via a wet dream.
      • Re: Testicles, Tan Tien, The Big Draw and The Orbit

        Wed, September 8, 2010 - 11:21 AM
        Hey Anthony thanks for your answers. May I ask then what is the purpose of testicle breathing, and what does it do? So then good methods for transforming sexual energy are ZZ and MCO eh? Does testicle breathing do that also?
        • Re: Testicles, Tan Tien, The Big Draw and The Orbit

          Wed, September 8, 2010 - 1:23 PM
          testicle breathing moves the unaroused energy from the testicles to the crown. its good for you, it feels good, and you don't have to be aroused.

          running the orbit causes the energies in the body to be refined a certain amount and redistributed to where they are most needed. The real transformation of sexual energy happens in the alchemical practices - Kan & Li.

          zhan zhuang (standing meditation) is 'good for what ails ya' and develops grounding and rooting. There are specific forms of standing meditations with other purposes.
          • Re: Testicles, Tan Tien, The Big Draw and The Orbit

            Wed, September 8, 2010 - 2:17 PM
            does testicle breathing help you to lower your desire as well? That is the major thing I'm interested in due to having a rather "high drive" that I would like to get under control. I have a book on Kan and Li but it seems a bit confusing. I'm assuming you should be at a certain level before you begin Kan and Li eh? What would be the pre-requisites for that? Thanks again for your replies.
            • Re: Testicles, Tan Tien, The Big Draw and The Orbit

              Wed, September 8, 2010 - 9:08 PM
              The testicle breathing should have some effect on lowering your libido. Depends on how much you do. How much time are you planning to put in each day?

              There is a long list of prerequisites before Kan & Li: inner smile, 6 healing sounds, microcosmic orbit, healing love, fusion 1,2,3
              • Re: Testicles, Tan Tien, The Big Draw and The Orbit

                Thu, September 9, 2010 - 10:55 AM
                I guess the main reason I am interested in lowering my libido is because everytime I start to try doing the Healing Love practicies my libido goes through the roof, not to mention its always pretty high anyways. But when I begin trying to do Healing Love my libido becomes soooo distracting that I can almost not concentrate on anything else. Is this what you call "Riding the Tiger?", cause the tiger is driving me insane lol.
                As far as the amount of time I plan on putting into it. I work in the evenings so I am pretty free in the mornings and early afternoon, so I have a lot of time to devote to it, and as its important to me I am willing to do so (thats if my libido will allow me to focus enough).
                For the prerequisites, I have been doing the inner smile, healing sounds, and MCO for a while now. I have dabbled with fussion, but I when I do I feel like I'm just visualizing it and doing feel like anything is really going on inside me as I do with the other practices I do. Is this how its supposed to be? or do you start to actually feeling something as well if you stick with it for a while?
                • Re: Testicles, Tan Tien, The Big Draw and The Orbit

                  Thu, September 9, 2010 - 2:09 PM
                  "But when I begin trying to do Healing Love my libido becomes soooo distracting that I can almost not concentrate on anything else. Is this what you call "Riding the Tiger?", cause the tiger is driving me insane lol."
                  yes. theres a reason we don't say 'riding the mule'. T.B. will help, but the other thing is for you just to hang out with the higher level of energy until your body gets used to it - it doesn't last forever. You might want to try the deer exercise (google it) which will help you strengthen the lower gate.

                  amount of time - the key thing is to practice every day. If you want to progress, you should be doing 30 plus minutes a day total practice time.

                  Fusion - its hard to get it started at first, you have to persist, when you do its an incredible feeling. Doing the 6 healking sounds every day helps too. If you've got the $, do a workshop - its easier in a group, very easy with Master Chia.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Testicles, Tan Tien, The Big Draw and The Orbit

                    Mon, September 20, 2010 - 10:35 AM
                    Thank you for the answers you have given me, they have been very helpful. If I'm doing the Big Draw and end up getting sperm in my bladder, does that mean that I waited a wee bit too late to begin contracting the perineum?
                    • Re: Testicles, Tan Tien, The Big Draw and The Orbit

                      Mon, September 20, 2010 - 11:37 AM
                      -"If I'm doing the Big Draw and end up getting sperm in my bladder, does that mean that I waited a wee bit too late to begin contracting the perineum?"

                      yes, that's correct.

                      You don't have to wait to 'draw' - you can do it any time. ie you become aroused, you are aroused for 60 seconds, now you draw.

                      While there is more energy available the closer you get to "the point of no return", there is also more risk. And doing the draw is *extremely* pleasurable.
                      • Re: Testicles, Tan Tien, The Big Draw and The Orbit

                        Mon, September 20, 2010 - 2:06 PM
                        Ok I went about 3 weeks retaining, but today I guess I reached critical mass or something because it seemed like no matter how much Testicle Breathing and Big Draw I did nothing changed at all. Even then I guess 3 weeks is an improvement because typically the longest I could do it was about 2 weeks. Nevertheless it seems I get to a certain point and no amount of doing the Big Draw or Cool Draw makes any difference. I'm not sure why, because before today if I felt "randy" usually a few good Big Draws and I would be good for a while. So I'm not sure what its called when you get to the point where it makes no difference, or why it happens. So after a couple hours of doing the Big Draw I decided enough was enough and "ejected" and then I was able to calm down. Do you know what this is, and what can be done about it?
                        • Re: Testicles, Tan Tien, The Big Draw and The Orbit

                          Mon, September 20, 2010 - 5:00 PM
                          "So after a couple hours of doing the Big Draw I decided enough was enough and "ejected" and then I was able to calm down."

                          Why didn't you just stop there and run your orbit for a while? Your erection *will* disappear.

                          Make sure you massage your penis, testes, perineum, sacrum, etc. afterwards.
                          • Re: Testicles, Tan Tien, The Big Draw and The Orbit

                            Tue, October 19, 2010 - 7:20 AM
                            Ok I have another question now. I have been doing the cold draw only for about a month now, and it has been working wonderfully for reducing my libido, so that part is great. I have also noticed however that I am extremely fatigued and tired after doing it. Is this normal? does it mean anything?
                            • Re: Testicles, Tan Tien, The Big Draw and The Orbit

                              Tue, October 19, 2010 - 8:52 PM
                              Sometimes when I start a new practice I've noticed fatigue. I assume that it is from some kind of cleansing / healing process. All the books talk about how healing the sexual energy is, fwiw.

                              I stand about 40 minutes a day (zhan zhaung) and I just learned a qigong set that works the central channels (chongmai) and L & R channels - stand 5 minutes, then 15 minutes of mostly arm movements - and stand 5 minutes. So if I do the new set - standing for 25 minutes, sometimes after doing that I have to sit down, whereas I have no problem just standing for 30 or 40 minutes.

                              Assuming that you aren't doing anything outlandish - that you are just sitting there & breathing and making your testicles go up and down, I'd say its a healing process. It should pass pretty quickly - or the amount of tired should be getting less. If you are using any strength - contractions & etc. that should be getting less too.

                              You could always check in with a TCM practicioner (ie acupuncturist).
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: Testicles, Tan Tien, The Big Draw and The Orbit

                    Sun, September 26, 2010 - 9:11 AM
                    I like that expression "Riding the Tiger" it is very apropos. I have the same difficulty. After about the fourth day of retention, things really start to ramp up. I use the testicle breathing, mco and chi kung to disperse the energy but it builds up quickly. The longest I have been able to retain is a little over three weeks. But between that fourth day and the third week all I can think about is sex. I try to have 3 sessions per day of masturbating to practice the big draw, do my orbit and go on my way. If I'm not careful, however, like on a weekend when I have extra time, those 3 sessions turn into 6 long sessions of edging...continually building up the energy, doing the big draw and finally a long mco session. After the second week I feel like a teenager who can't keep my hands out of my pants. Is this normal? Does it eventually dissipate? Should I not masturbate to practice the big draw and circulate the energy so often? I really feel there is a lot of validity to these taoist practices, but am having difficulty getting past this point. Also, when I practice the big draw, I can definitely feel my orbit moving, but I have yet to feel the bliss in crown, only the moving of energy from my sex organs into the orbit and my dan tien.

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